James Carville and Mary Matalin, whose improbable marriage has now lasted 23 years, agree on at least two things: they love each other and they love business jets. But on many other issues, they remain at least as far apart as America’s two major political parties. The couple met in 1992 while Matalin was deputy director for President George H.W. Bush’s reelection campaign and Carville was a key strategist for Bush’s opponent, Bill Clinton. Carville has remained a friend and supporter of both Bill and Hillary Clinton while teaching political science at New Orleans’s Tulane University and consulting on international political campaigns for clients like England’s Labour Party and former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak. Matalin, who recently changed her party registration from Republican to Libertarian, spent many years as a strategist with the Republican National Committee, served under President Ronald Reagan, and was an adviser to President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney. Together and separately, Carville and Matalin have written many bestselling books and appeared often on TV to talk and debate about healthcare, climate change, the economy, and other current issues. They have also been frequent speakers at the annual conventions of the National Business Aviation Association, where they have spoken as passionately about business aviation as they have about politics. In separate conversations, which took place shortly after the 2016 Republican and Democratic conventions, we asked Matalin and Carville about their experiences with flying privately. Then we moved on to some of the other topics with which many of us are preoccupied as the November 8 election approaches. INTERVIEW WITH MARY MATALINYou’ve flown on what many people would call the ultimate business jets, Air Force One and Two. Who’d be best for business aviation—Clinton or Trump? That’s a micro issue. The larger issue of the cost of doing business is not one that’s been promoted by liberal policies. I would guess that Trump would be better on that. I would also say that as an aficionado of private flight, he would understand the necessity of incentivizing that industry in an economy that needs to be more mobile to be competitive. You said two years ago that you hoped Clinton would run because “we’ll beat her soundly.” Do you still think so? Would you agree that he’s survived making many statements that would have sunk a candidate a few years ago? What do you think are the most important issues facing the country now? You add on top of that a ludicrous resistance to acknowledge the threat of global Islamic extremism and our ridiculous immigration policies and our intelligence policies and our foreign policy, which have exacerbated the threat to us in the homeland. That is a very real number-two concern. Three—people do not like to have random disorder in their lives, where cops are being shot and criminals are being heralded. What do you mean by criminals “being heralded”? Can you point to anything President Obama has done that you consider good? What about your husband? Do you agree with him on any national issues? Do you think the Republican and Democratic parties could learn anything from your marriage? If you have a different view of the country, which it seems politicians do, then never the twain shall meet. In our case, I don’t care what our problems are, we’re never gonna not love each other, we’re never gonna get divorced, and we’re never gonna do anything that will jeopardize the happiness of our children. So I don’t think it’s the same dynamic [as politics]. Do you share the Libertarians’ opposition to all gun control? How would you fix healthcare? Do you favor allowing people to opt out of Social Security? What if, like many young people today, they don’t do that? What about the many people, mostly children, who simply can’t care for themselves? The Libertarians would eliminate welfare and rely on charity. Another Libertarian position is that private organizations should be able to set any standards of association they deem appropriate, which seems to mean, for example, that privately owned restaurants should be able to deny service to gay people— You’re saying businesses should be able to serve whomever they want? So you’re saying a restaurant should be able to put up a sign saying “no gays,” “no blacks”— —or “no Republicans allowed.” I’d say that’s completely stupid and an economic travesty but it’s your private business. I don’t see where it’s the government’s role to tell you, other than in hiring practices, who you should be forced to provide your service to. My position is, a private enterprise can pick and choose its customers. If they wish to stay in business, they would be smart to have universal services available. They should not be run out of business if they’re asked to do something that goes against their beliefs. I don’t know any place that says “no gays allowed” or “no blacks allowed.” Maybe there was in a bygone era. Well, there are businesses that have refused to provide services to gay people. But they can’t legally do that now. Do you believe there’s no scientific consensus on climate change? We can put money into less-polluting energy production. I’m talking about real pollution, not carbon dioxide. And those options like nuclear energy and natural gas are also rejected by the climate-change extremists because it’s about power and controlling people’s lives. There’s no cleaner energy than nuclear and they’re against nuclear. There’s no cleaner energy than natural gas and they don’t want fossil fuel. No scientist that’s using real numbers can claim credibly that wind and solar and renewables can ever produce more than 2 percent of our energy needs. If we all stopped using fossil fuels tomorrow, that would not stop climate change. Because there were no cars in the Ice Age and no cars when ice melted. Can you think of anything about yourself that would surprise people? INTERVIEW WITH JAMES CARVILLECan you give me an example of when flying privately has been helpful to you in recent years? You’ve flown on Air Force One. It’s quite an experience. It does what it’s supposed to do: it projects the power and the prestige of the presidency. It’s a kind of moving billboard if you will. Look how Trump uses his plane. Always puts it in the backdrop of his events. The crowds love it. I worked in ’87 for the governor of Kentucky, who had a helicopter, and part of our thing was, we would have a rally and we’d circle a couple of times. It adds a lot of drama. Kind of swoop in, you know. Who do you think would be best for business aviation—Trump or Clinton? When Bill Clinton first ran for president, you famously proclaimed, “It’s the economy, stupid.” Would you still tell a candidate that? Another of your points to Bill Clinton was that he should communicate change versus more of the same. But isn’t Hillary basically a more-of-the-same candidate? I do think Hillary has to convince people that she wants to change things. One thing I always tell people is nobody has ever run saying the next four years are gonna look like the last eight. Even when Bush Sr. ran after eight years of Reagan, he was talking about kinder, gentler, and how he would change things. That’s understandable. But you can’t out-change Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. It just can’t be done. Given that Hillary Clinton is a world-famous former first lady, senator, and secretary of state, how is it that a little-known Democratic socialist from Vermont was able to mount a serious challenge? And how is it that in recent months at least, she’s been in a close race with someone who has alienated big portions of the electorate? She did solidly win, but at the beginning, he was considered a fringe candidate, if not a joke. Yeah, and he tapped into a certain segment of the Democratic Party, but if current polling is to be believed, a lot of people have come back into the fold. And she’s running for a third Democratic term, which is not the easiest thing in the world to do. We can always say, well, she didn’t do this or that, but right now she seems to be doing pretty good. But her unfavorable ratings are still about as high as Trump’s. How do you explain the decline in Democratic turnout in the primaries? OK, why? Why doesn’t Clinton just release her Wall Street speeches? Well, she said during the primaries that she’d release her speeches when everybody else released speeches. Why doesn’t she just say— Yes, but— But why does her action have to depend on his? Why can’t she just say, “I have nothing to hide. Here are my speeches, and I think he ought to release his tax returns as every other recent candidate has done.” In April of last year, you predicted that the issue of her emails would amount to nothing. Do you still think so? If Obama couldn’t get Congress to cooperate with him, how will Clinton? If you were advising Trump, what advice would you give him? Could Washington politicians learn anything from your marriage? What’s your position on gun control? And climate change? You and Mary disagree on that. How do you feel about Obamacare? One problem in this country is that every argument is pitched in apocalyptic terms. Climate is probably close to one that should be pitched in apocalyptic terms. Most issues don’t measure up to that. It’s always, “If not us, who? If not now, when? We’re on the precipice; it’s the abyss or prosperity.” Usually, choices aren’t that clear-cut. I’m adamant with young people about that. One reason the country is so divided is that all arguments are presented as the abyss versus prosperity. What other reasons would you point to? Also, Democrats overwhelmingly live in cities and Republicans overwhelmingly live everywhere else. What that’s produced is a situation where, particularly in congressional districts, there’s not a competitive race between a Democrat and Republican. It’s just Republican against Republican or Democrat versus Democrat. So the public is treated to internal debate. Do you have Obamacare or do you have single payer? Or do you repeal Obamacare and go to something more market-oriented or do you get the government totally out of healthcare? We don’t interact with each other because we don’t live in the same places. A lot of times I’ll give a speech to Democrats and I’ll say, “What can you do to help the party?” and my answer is, “Move.”
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